Catching the Next Cosmic Wave – The Last Interview of Ambassador Joe Wilson pt6/6

On Reality Asserts Itself, with Paul Jay:
Amb. Joe Wilson reflects on his coming death and challenges us to face up to the difficult fight ahead.
Wilson’s wife Valerie Plame was outed as a CIA officer by VP Cheney’s office after Wison exposed lies that lead up to the Iraq War. The story was depicted in the movie “Fair Game”, Wilson was played by Sean Penn. Joe Wilson died Sept. 2019 PT (06/06)

Transcript

Paul Jay

Welcome back to Reality Asserts Itself.I’m Paul Jay. We’re continuing our discussion with Ambassador Joe Wilson. Ambassador, before we came out just a few days before we came, you told me that you’re dying, that you wanted to do the interview. But you don’t know how much time there is. But you’re having to face your mortality.

Wilson

Yeah.

Paul Jay

 And in the context of all the conversations we’ve been having about what’s coming for the earth, for the people, you’ve got kids, you’ve got grandkids.  Knowing where you’re at in the arc of your life, what would you want to say?

Wilson

Well, I would. It’s not so much as facing my mortality, as getting ready to take that next step. I’m a big fan of Einstein and an even bigger fan of Stephen Hawkings. And Einstein once said about the universe that there has to be a God out there because it is too mathematically perfect. And he and Hawkings, and particularly the Hubble telescope, showed us all what cosmic waves are all about. So I’m on my next step is I’m gonna catch that next cosmic wave. And I know it’s out there. So I’m not,  I’m not worried. I’m surrounded by people who love me. I’ve got my kids and my grandkids coming to see me. I have some really fearless Santa Fe women who are helping me through this whole process and making sure that I, you know, remember to brush my teeth and go to the bathroom and wash myself. So, so, I’m at total peace. And  I’m close enough to the end that I can say what I want without having to worry too much about the consequences. So in a way, it’s very liberating. And I’m really blessed. It has been a it has been a grand adventure. You don’t get to spend 30 years going around Africa and the Middle East and working on a half a dozen wars and knowing, personally,  presidents and chiefs of state. You just don’t get to do that in a life. So it has been, it’s just been an extraordinary adventure. And I’m  so blessed and I’m so lucky. It’s been grand. 

Paul Jay

There was a scene in the movie, “Vice,” and we’re gonna show it now.

Cheney

So this Joe Wilson, the asshole,  was questioning our intelligence in the New York Times. What’s his wife’s name again? 

speaker

Valerie Plame. I confirmed it. She’s undercover CIA .

Cheney

Leak it.

Wilson

This says “Joe Wilson is an asshole.” And that’s my epitaph. 

Paul Jay

We’ve talked about a lot of pretty dangerous things coming. You said it’s going to get worse before it gets better. What do you say to people who don’t get that?

Wilson

 Take it seriously, take it seriously and face the challenge? If there is sort of one life lesson that I can share with people is, is when dangerous coming your way? Face it. And we got to face this one. 

Paul Jay

And why do you think the majority of the elites who have the wherewithal to do something about climate, they have the wherewithal to do something about the kind of crazy politics and seem to be just interested in making money. And they seem to be just living in a bubble  of denial.

Wilson

At the end of the day, our lives are us, those around us. The neighborhood store, the local bar we hang out in.  As Bill Clinton loves to say. If you want to know Arkansas politics, you got to know the bars in the barbershops. And bars and barbershops and local politics in our little neighborhood lives don’t get us to that big view that we need to have.

Paul Jay

But many of the billionaires can afford and have a big view. Not all of them. A lot of them are just interested in their planes and their cars and whatever. But there’s a fair number who do have a big view and somehow think they’re going to be OK. Their kids will be OK, and the hell with the rest. You know this apres moi le deluge,  after me come the floods.

Wilson

And, you know, they might be they’re going to have enough money to live in their enclaves and be surrounded by by robots who will keep them safe while everybody else’s is on the streets. But I don’t share the view that billionaires, by definition, have any greater vision than anybody else. And I think. I think Robert Kraft really exemplifies for me the billionaire class. He’s still going to get a 15 dollar hand-job from a massage parlor in Palm Beach, Florida. And I don’t think their thinking goes a whole lot deeper than that. And my respect for them as a class goes no deeper than that.

Paul Jay

In the last segment you talk about, we’re not there yet, but people have to take on these plutocrats. 

Wilson

Yeah. 

Paul Jay

What would that look like? 

Wilson

Well, I don’t know. I think,  I would like to think that we can do this in our society at the ballot box. But I think 2016 showed us that’s no longer possible. Our constitution is deeply, deeply flawed. And it doesn’t get us to where we need to get. It doesn’t produce the outcome that represents, see, the sort of majority, moderate view

Paul Jay

Because of the Electoral College, 

Wilson

Because of the college,  yea. And so I wish I could tell you how we get there. I’ve watched societies all around the world as they’ve gone through political convulsions. And what I fear most right now, again, is not not so much the lack of leadership in our country, but the lack of leadership globally. And it’s why I keep coming back to Barbara Tuchman’s book, “The Guns of August,” because it is kind of the drift that happens when you don’t have that international moral authority, and you don’t have those leaders who are willing to to rise above their petty politics or their fear that they might lose the next election. We don’t have that now, and when we don’t have that, we drift towards conflict. And I see it everywhere. 

Paul Jay

Thank you much for doing this. 

Wilson

Thank you. My pleasure. 

Paul Jay

Wish you well  on your journey. 

Wilson

On my journey?

Paul Jay

On your journey. On the flow of energy.

Wilson

 My cosmic wave is a left. I’m a goofy foot. So I’ll be facing that wave. 

Paul Jay

Thanks much. 

Wilson

Thank you very much.

Paul Jay

Thank you for joining us on Reality Asserts Itself.

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