The Ultimate Serial Killer is Nuclear War – Paul Jay

Walter Kiriaki

Hi. Welcome back to part two of our conversation with Professor John, Professor Ann Li, and Paul Jay of theAnalysis.news.

Paul Jay

Can I just say something? Because when you introduced me last time, you talked about me founding The Real News, which is true. I don’t work there anymore. I’m at theAnalysis.news; that’s the website. It is theAnalysis.news that’s producing the– the name of the film is How to Stop a Nuclear War.

Walter Kiriaki

Okay. Well, tell us a little more about your documentary, which you’ve got lined up here, Paul, if you wouldn’t mind.

Paul Jay

Yeah, I’ll do a little bit, and then we can take some questions. So first of all, it’s the story of Dan Ellsberg, who was the man who by releasing the Pentagon Papers helped end the Vietnam War, but even more specifically, helped restrain Nixon from using a nuclear weapon in Vietnam.

One of the points Ellsberg makes and will make in the film is that if that had happened, it wouldn’t have just been a disaster for Vietnam. Although he doesn’t think, nor did Nixon think, that the Soviet Union or China would have done anything about it. Neither of them was going to risk an all-out nuclear war over Vietnam. It would have created an era of the use of tactical nuclear weapons. It would have normalized it, which partly happened after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the world was pretty horrified by that. But another tactical in Vietnam might have normalized it.

So it’s partly the story of Ellsberg’s role in discovering the horror and lies of American nuclear war planning because he was a nuclear war planner. He worked for Rand Corporation before he released the Pentagon Papers. He was an adviser to the White House and the Pentagon, including during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He has some very important insights into the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Walter Kiriaki

This is Daniel?

Paul Jay

Yeah.

Walter Kiriaki

You’re talking about?

Paul Jay

Daniel Ellsberg. If somebody wants to know more about that because it has a lot to say about what’s happening today. It’s also about his warning of today, how great at risk we are. He thinks even in some ways riskier than the Cuban Missile Crisis in terms of how close we could be to nuclear war. The film is going to propose, based on Ellsberg and some others who agree with him, some very concrete things that could be done to mitigate; I should use the word, reduce the risk of nuclear war. There are some things that could be done without a complete transformation of the economy, without getting to some form of socialism, and without a radical rupture from today’s world; although I’d love to see such a radical rupture, but there needs to be such a world to have a radical rupture with. There are some steps that could be taken. Number one is to get rid of ICBMs, even unilaterally. They do nothing except they are targets. They’re an accident waiting to happen. The only thing they do effectively is make money for Lockheed Martin. Everything else is BS.

Walter Kiriaki

In this age of nuclear submarines, do we really need ICBMs?

Paul Jay

No, that’s the point. The deterrent is in the subs, all ICBMs– you know what they call one of the defenders of ICBMs? The name for them is nuclear sinkholes, meaning that if there’s a Russian attack on the United States, they’re going to try to take out all the ICBMs, so they’re going to have less ICBMs to blow up cities with. That’s supposedly a rational defense. Now, say that to Winnipeg or Calgary, that’s not very far from these Montana ICBMs. But anyway, who gives a damn about Canadian cities anyway? Get rid of ICBMs. They’re absolutely pointless. Subs can do everything in terms of deterrence and then some.

Two, it doesn’t matter Ukraine or no Ukraine; immediately restart START. Get back to nuclear weapon negotiations and treaties because right now, there’s nothing. I mean, there is one, but they’re not doing it. By 2024, even that will be over with. There has to be a serious nuclear arms reduction treaty. There needs to be specifically a treaty to reduce and eliminate tactical nuclear weapons. Get it off the table. It should be illegal. They can’t be had. They’re not really a deterrent. They’re a type of first-strike weapon. Where they really are effective is against non-nuclear countries. That’s what they’re meant for. They’re not meant to use against another big nuclear country. Russia might use it against Ukraine because they know the U.S. won’t go to an all-out nuclear war to defend Ukraine. I don’t even know if the U.S. would really do it even to defend Poland, Romania, or even to defend a NATO country.

Walter Kiriaki

Don’t you think China and India would have something to say on that if Russia uses nukes? Because that’s in their backyard.

Paul Jay

Well, yeah, most importantly, China. I mean, China does not want Russia to use nukes. There’s no question. They’re warning the Americans to be careful what you wish for. If there’s a breakup of the Russian Federation, if Putin’s regime really thinks they’re about to be overthrown. Yeah, of course, but they don’t have control over the Russian state. They have a lot of power and influence, but they don’t control it.

So reduce, get rid of ICBMs, reduce and eliminate tactical nuclear weapons, and get rid of anti-ballistic missile systems completely. They don’t really work. They give a false sense of security, and to the extent they might work, let’s say the Americans really do develop some ABM system that’s relatively effective; it gives a first-strike capability, so it scares the hell out of the other side. Get rid of this new damn stealth bomber, the B-21. It can avoid radar, and it can be armed with nuclear weapons. They just rolled it out a couple of months ago. Do you want a weapon that could drop nuclear bombs that Russian radar or Chinese radar can’t pick up? That just means they’re going to see some balloon flying over and think it’s a stealth and preemptively fire. It’s beyond insanity where we are headed on nuclear.

We need to get away from focusing– of course, we want the abolition of nuclear weapons, but we can’t just focus on that as the demand because that ain’t happening. In fact, there’s an argument to be made if Ukraine really had a few nukes under its own control because they gave up nuclear weapons but they never controlled them. It was always Soviet and then Russian-controlled. But if they actually had their own nukes, would Russia have invaded? Would North Korea still be what it is if it didn’t have a few nukes?

This is part of the problem of non-proliferation. If the U.S. and Russia don’t seriously reduce their own number of weapons, how do they persuade anybody to buy into non-proliferation? The world is going the other way. Ukraine is telling everybody, “shit, you better have a few.” So we need to have a demand for rationality coming from the people. The elites need a goddamn slap across the damn face. Even your own wealth isn’t going to mean nothing. So the film is about Dan’s story, and then it weaves into the current situation and into real things that could help at least reduce the risk.

Walter Kiriaki

So at the present time, if people want to help with the funding, they can go to your website, theAnalysis.news.

Paul Jay

Yeah, it’s not net. It’s theAnalysis.news or .com works, too. Either one works. If you donate, I think there’s someplace where you can email and say this donation is meant for the film, or you can donate just generally.

Walter Kiriaki

The ultimate serial killer is nuclear war.

Paul Jay

That’s great. That’s how I should pitch it to Netflix. Do you want the true crime serial killer? Here, I got the ultimate serial killer for you. It’s a good line. I am going to use that.

Walter Kiriaki

We’ll take a few questions. I think the first guy up is our friend, Rodrigo, who would love to do the Spanish version of your film.

Paul Jay

He’s got to be as famous as Emma Thompson.

Walter Kiriaki

Well, only in our society is he. Rod, what’s your question, my friend?

Rodrigo Saldaña Zárate

Thanks. I have a few, but feel free to address the ones you want to. Biden and Trudeau are now ordering F-22s to waste Sidewinder missiles on either UFOs, UFBS, or weather balloons because the right wing is pushing the narrative that you look weak if you don’t potentially start World War III or an interstellar war. The Chinese have started to shoot down balloons too. Can we trust any of these actors to push for peace if we don’t push them? Also, many people think the solution is replacing Putin, but they refuse to acknowledge that anyone likely to replace Putin is either to his right or death. Can you talk about this a bit?

Paul Jay

Well, let me start with the second one first. I agree with you. The likelihood of the fall of Putin, unless there’s a real mass uprising of progressive Russian people, and that’s not out of the question from what I’m hearing, but not tomorrow. Unless there’s that, then the likelihood is Putin would be replaced by an even more rabid Christian nationalist. Even the supposed Russian Communist Party is even more nationalist than Putin. Of course, the church is this toxic mix of religion and nationalism. Yeah, I think you’re right. I think anyone that wishes for the downfall of Putin– be careful what you wish for– because at least there’s somebody there, maybe, who would make some a deal. Who knows what comes next. It could be more of an outright Hitler.

On the first question, on the Sidewinders, I was just reading this morning, apparently, each one of those Sidewinders cost the Pentagon $430,000. Apparently, they have more than 100,000 of them and have just ordered another, was it 25,000? Some crazy number. Why the hell do you need a Sidewinder missile to shoot down a balloon? I mean, can’t you do that with a slingshot? Just poke the damn thing, and the air comes out. I mean, I don’t understand. The whole balloon thing is such absolute nonsense.

I was just saying if it’s everything they say it is, let’s say it’s a spy thing, which is ridiculous anyway, I think, but let’s say it is. So what? Who gives a shit? What are they doing that they couldn’t do by satellite? It’s just nonsense. Somebody said, “oh, maybe they’re able to hover and pick up telephone communication at one of the missile silo bases in Montana.” They can’t hire someone to drive a car near the base and pick that up? What do they need a balloon for? Just go drive next to the base. There are roads that go right up to the edge of the fence. The whole thing is idiocy. The problem is it’s a symptom of how domestic politics is driving an insane foreign policy because if you don’t shoot down the balloon, you look weak on China. So you shoot down the balloon and come up with more ridiculous rhetoric. You actually had a rational thing where [United States Secretary of State, Antony] Blinken was going to go talk to his vis-à-vis in China and talk about how to reduce tension, and here come the balloons. I don’t know. Maybe Dick Cheney put the balloon up there. I don’t know. Who does that serve? All of a sudden, these balloons showing up.

Now, the thing to understand, though, is there’s Dick Cheney’s on the other side. China has its version of Dick Cheney. There are real nationalist war hawks and a military-industrial complex in China. So these economic motives of an almost war, of great tension, including over Taiwan. There are the same people in China, I think, somewhat less of them, somewhat less powerful than they are in the United States. On both sides, and I’m including Russia, there is a military-industrial complex in all three of these states. I’m not sure the Russians are loving how Ukraine is going, but generally speaking, they like an almost war.

Have you guys ever heard of a guy named [Basil] Zaharoff?

Walter Kiriaki

Yeah.

Paul Jay

In the First World War, he was the original ‘merchant of death’. They’ve used that phrase since. This guy got the rights to sell one of the early machine guns. I’m not sure which one it was in Europe in the lead-up to World War I. He got a contract selling them. Well, actually, he took out newspaper ads that looked like articles because, back in those days, you could. In the French papers, he had an article reporting that the Germans had bought his machine gun. In the German papers, he got an article printed that the French had bought his machine guns. Of course, the Germans and French both went out and bought the machine guns. This guy was feeding everybody weapons all through the First World War, and he wasn’t the only one. The world, to a large extent, is governed by out-and-out sociopaths.

Walter Kiriaki

I’d agree with that. I also would have used the Jewish space laser to take out the balloon.

Paul Jay

I don’t know about that.

Rodrigo Saldaña Zárate

Three more quick ones before, Joe.

Walter Kiriaki

Go ahead, Rodrigo.

Rodrigo Saldaña Zárate

[crosstalk 00:18:30] now believe that Zelenskyy sabotaged peace talks, perhaps under the direction of the billionaire who owns the TV station where he played the Ukrainian President. Can you address the implications or relevance of this? The trial of Assange continues. For those not keeping up, he’s been tried as a foreign journalist that embarrassed the U.S., there is no mention of other things, which mainstream media is finally starting to get worried about. Can you talk about this a bit?

Paul Jay

These are disconnected things, so you better not– I’m going to forget what you’re asking here. Let me do Assange. The peace thing, I don’t know the details. I just know what you know. It sounds like Zelenskyy was pressured by the Americans. [inaudible 00:19:25] and maybe Boris Johnson, it sounds like that. I know Zelenskyy, just a few weeks after the invasion, said something very reasonable, which is, “maybe now is the time to say no NATO because we’re never getting in anyway.” He was shut upped.

Walter Kiriaki

I think part of the controversy was that the Israel Ambassador, who said that they had a peace deal lined up, Boris shotgunned it. But if you go on through the article, they said that Bucha was found out. Four hundred people were tortured and dead. They said once that came out, there was no way there was going to be a peace deal.

Paul Jay

If they wanted a peace deal, there would have been a peace deal. But otherwise, how many more Buchas are there? There’s a very powerful section of liberal Democrats who have really been won over and partly directly by Zelenskyy courting them and saying that Ukraine must be liberated and to compromise on it is to give in to a kind of Hitler. It’s intimidating. If Biden had any instincts to try to resolve this, and he might have, he did oppose the no-fly zone when Hillary was for it. As in China right now, I wouldn’t rule out– I mean, I don’t like the demonization of George Soros, but Soros has gone nuts on China. He’s a major funder of the Democrats, and he may be an influence in pushing the Biden administration to be more aggressive on China. The fact that Blinken was going to go there and it gets sabotaged by these balloons, it’s too much to be a coincidence. It could be a coincidence, but it seems it’s more than a coincidence.

As far as Assange goes, well, you know when Assange was arrested, he was holding my book, right?

Walter Kiriaki

No, I did not know that.

Paul Jay

Yeah, I made a short documentary called The History of the National Security State, which is just an interview with Gore Vidal with a bunch of images. Then I turned it into a book, The History of the National Security State. When he’s arrested, just look at all the photographs; in his handcuffed hands, he’s holding a book, and that’s my book, the interview with Gore Vidal. I think what’s happening is that, yeah, the newspapers have finally got through their damn heads that the reason they’re prosecuting Assange is to try to intimidate the major newspapers. That’s the point of it. And any future whistleblowers like any other Chelsea Manning’s– it’s interesting that Obama had decided not to prosecute Assange for exactly those reasons. He thought it would be wrong to go after the big newspapers. He knew a prosecution of Assange would lead to that. But Trump overturned that and went after him. Apparently, he even talked about ways to assassinate Assange, which is ironic. Yet people like Glenn Greenwald go on the Tucker Carlson Show and think they’re going to recruit Tucker Carlson to demand the freedom for Assange, which he kind of does, but it’s all bullshit because he supports Trump, who wanted to kill Assange.

I think the plan they’re hoping for is Assange dies in jail and that they drag this out and drag this out. I think the last thing they really want is a trial. If they do finally extradite him to the U.S., there are ways, I guess, within American law to try to appeal and do this and do that. I don’t think they really want a trial because it might turn into a show trial and put U.S. foreign policy on trial. So, of course, he should be let go. It’s not a prosecution; it’s a persecution.

Walter Kiriaki

John, do you have something to add?

Jonathan Bick

I would agree with that for sure. It’s mind-boggling that the U.S. government is persecuting journalists by using the Espionage Act and other things that were not intended for that purpose. Or if they were, they should have no business persisting. I’m finding myself in agreement with almost everything Paul has said, so I’m having a little difficulty.

Walter Kiriaki

How about yourself, Ann?

Ann Li

No, I agree with the analysis. It’s really unfortunate that there are so many military-industrial complexes that are at work across the globe and working in effect at cross purposes.

Walter Kiriaki

Well, that is so true. Rodrigo, are you done with your questions, or do you have one more?

Rodrigo Saldaña Zárate

I have more. Paul Jay mentioned wanting a Marshall Plan for Ukraine. I just wanted to remind people that the rich countries used the previous COP to push India and China into voting against moving away from fossil fuels because the rich countries refuse to subsidize the developing nations in their quest to develop without crippling themselves.

Paul Jay

Yeah.

Rodrigo Saldaña Zárate

I don’t think they’ve changed their minds about that.

Paul Jay

Yeah, I understand. It’s true. But for China, you should see what China looks like at three degrees. You should see what Russia looks like at three degrees. Russia’s already– Siberia is already a complete mess because of climate change.

Walter Kiriaki

The permafrost.

Paul Jay

Yeah, the permafrost is melting. As the permafrost melts, the oil pipelines are cracking. Methane is being released. It’s already a mess. And China, at three degrees, I don’t get why the Chinese aren’t more active on this front. They’re doing something. It’s not that they’re doing nothing, but it doesn’t seem to be as high a priority as one would think it would be. It’s not like they’re a fossil fuel-producing country. Russia doesn’t have much motivation, given their economy is so dependent on fossil fuel. But China still, what is it, a new coal processing plant or mine, one every week. Of course, the Ukraine war is pushing Europe back into coal.

But you’re right. The bottom line is capitalism is at a stage of extreme irrationality. There has always been irrationality within capitalism. There’s a kernel of rationality, which is short-term profit. So the irrationality of a First World War, of a Second World War, go on and on with it, the insane destruction of all of that– there’s some rationality of it that at least some people are making money out of it. I mean, it’s horrible, but there’s a logic to it. Where’s the logic now when what they’re doing is going to lead to their own destruction and the ability for them to make profit? Capitalism has lost even that much logic. The profit-making logic is so short-term that they won’t even regulate the insanities of Wall Street.

I did a story just a little while ago about– I interviewed Rob Johnson about this from INET. There is– let me remember the numbers here. There’s this thing in currency swaps where one country or one pension fund or sovereign wealth fund, let’s say the Japanese pension fund owns a ton of yen, but they want to do an investment in Europe, and they need euros. Vice versa; some European pension fund, wealth asset management company, whatever– we’re talking in millions and millions of dollars here, usually– they want to do something in Japan, and they need yen. So they do a contract for currency swap. So the deal is, we’ll give you the yen, you give us the euros, and we’re going to make a deal in one week or one month or 90 days, whatever the contract is, we’ll swap back again. Whatever the difference in the currency exchange rates is, we’ll adjust how much money has to be done in the swap so that it comes out even. So we’re really just doing a swap. Now, that seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. In some ways, it is.

Well, the Bank for International Settlement, which has been called the Central Bank of Central Banks, issued a report just a few weeks ago, which said– now, let me get the number. I may be wrong with my numbers, but I think it’s 1.5 trillion dollars, maybe more. It’s something like the GDP of the United States. No, no, no. The GDP of the United States is like 19 trillion, 20 trillion. Anyway, it is several trillions of dollars that are outstanding in these contracts. But according to this report, here’s the rub, they don’t have to report these amounts of money that are outstanding on the contracts on their books until the contract closes. So according to the Bank for National Settlements, there are trillions and trillions of dollars out there in these unresolved contracts on nobody’s books.

So what happens when the contract comes due? Say the 90 days is up, what if one of the partners has gone bankrupt? What if there’s a 2008-2009 type event where several banks, many banks, are in deep crisis and don’t even trust each other’s books anymore, which is what happened in ’07 and ’08? They wouldn’t loan to each other because each individual bank had created such systemic fraud about their own assets, they knew the other banks had done the same thing, and they wouldn’t loan to each other. So the system got paralyzed, and the Fed had to come in and bail them all out because the whole of global capitalism would have collapsed. The whole banking system would have collapsed.

Well, according to the Bank for International Settlements, that same risk now exists because of the amount of money in currency swaps that have the potential to go south. And if a few go south, then it could be a domino effect, according to this report. So these guys, these guys being the financial elites who are the real lords of the universe, they won’t even allow some regulation so these systemic threats that could destroy their own wealth don’t continue. The irrationality of capitalism is at a stage where they can’t even defend their own system.

I used to use this line, and I’m going to bring it back again. The billionaire class is not fit to rule. Now, you could say for the majority of the American population, for quite a while, most people did benefit from the American empire. Not everybody, by far, of course. But up until recently, I don’t know what the new numbers are, but there’s a really interesting statistic. In terms of actual numbers of people, there were about as many families with income over $100,000 as there were families with income under $40,000. Get that, eh? So most Americans were doing okay, even though, of course, millions were not. So this is shifting now. Anyways, just to get to this point, we have to find ways to talk to people about this beyond the limited platforms we all have here because the billionaire class is leading us over a cliff.

Walter Kiriaki

I would agree with that.

Jonathan Bick

Just to let you know, the amount in those foreign currency swaps is 65 trillion, which is many times the…

Paul Jay

Much more than the American GDP. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. It’s a global systemic threat. And the BIS, they sound like BS, but they’re not. They’re serious money managers who try to defend global capitalism as realistically as they can. When they come out with a report like this, it should have been headlines everywhere, but you could barely find this. Bloomberg had it, Reuters had a report, and the odd business press did. But it came and went, and nothing has changed.

Walter Kiriaki

I remember 2008, 2009; Edmonton’s got a million people now. You could drive down the highway and see very few cars because everybody got laid off. I remember people having to sell their houses. Sheet metalists would drive for pizza delivery services over this. Joe, you have a–

Joe in Norway

Great, thanks. I was wondering if you could talk about the antiwar movement as it exists and if you’ve explored that in your documentary and what the state is in North America. From my perspective, it seems there’s a fairly sizable Russian and Ukrainian population, heritage-wise, in both of the countries, and whether there’s some coalition with those two groups working together as a unified antiwar coalition. Has anything like that started?

Paul Jay

I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know. I’m stuck here on my computer working on the film and going out and shooting. It’s a good idea, you’d think. But the problem with the Ukrainian community, at least in Canada, it’s very much, and I don’t know everybody, I’m sure not, but to a large extent, it’s trying to get the Canadian government to be as militant of supporting the Ukrainian government as possible. I don’t hear Ukrainian voices saying there needs to be a compromise.

Joe in Norway

–or in a radically different–

Paul Jay

I’m sure there are such voices, but they’re not getting any exposure in the Canadian media.

Joe in Norway

Yes, we’re in quite a radically different state compared to the pre-Iraq war situation. It’s a more clear-cut situation.

Paul Jay

Well, there’s something that happens to a section of the Americans, Canadians, and others. The American liberal Left, always, when it’s been antiwar, feels like it’s in the minority; it’s on the outside. There’s a section of liberal corporate Democrats and such that like to, what’s the word, tap into the Cold War and nationalist fervor.

Walter Kiriaki

Reich, guys.

Paul Jay

Anti-Russia, head down with the Russians. It’s some emotional release that people used to get about hating communism. Now you can hate the Russians and still think you’re a good guy. The resolution that just passed in the Senate, I mean the House, the anti-socialist resolution. I was glad to see 86 Democrats voted against it. That’s something. The fact that 170-something Democrats, I can’t remember the numbers, voted for it is despicable but not surprising. But 86 voted against it and actually understood that this resolution against socialism is targeting certain measures in the United States that are socialistic. Obviously, Medicare is socialistic, and what’s the other one?

Jonathan Bick

Social Security.

Paul Jay

Social Security is socialistic. One of the congresswomen Democrats pointed out a lot of the policies in American allies, like in the Nordic states, even Canada has a government health insurance plan. She was saying these things are like socialist policies. So if you’re condemning that, you’re condemning many of our allies. But there is a reason why the far right is vilifying socialism. It’s not that they just want to paint the Democrats as being socialists, which on the whole, they’re not. It’s because there is something becoming painfully obvious to much of the American elites, which is there is no other solution than a socialistic type of solution. There is nothing else for climate. When it comes to the climate crisis, without central planning, you do not get to a green sustainable economy. The marketplace will never get us to a green sustainable economy. Everybody knows it. Without central planning and public ownership, I mean, maybe central planning with severe regulations might do it, but I doubt it.

Bob Pollin from the PERI Institute and others, if you don’t nationalize the fossil fuel industry and phase it out, it ain’t going to happen. Certainly, the marketplace won’t do it. So these guys especially– and who’s behind this far right? Well, it’s the fossil fuel industry and sections, if not the whole of the military-industrial complex; that’s who’s behind and finances this thing. They know, and in spite of them knowing that it ain’t happening without socialistic type policies, they don’t want it.

Walter Kiriaki

I’m under the opinion 3PLs that are public-private partnerships don’t work.

Paul Jay

Yeah, there’s certainly no evidence that they do.

Walter Kiriaki

That’s true. That is right.

Paul Jay

This attack on socialism is not just a distraction. The fact that so many Democrats voted for it, like I said, give credit to the 86 that didn’t, but the fact that the vast majority of Democrats voted for it, it’s not just intimidation of being worried about being called soft on communism and this and that, which is part of it. They are worried about that. I’ll give Obama credit for two things. One, I never drank the Obama kool-aid. I was critical of Obama from day one. I mean, before day one, before he was President. I used to do something where I wouldn’t watch his speeches. I would read them. If you read them, you knew you were dealing with a center, center-right Democrat. But if you watch them, that gorgeous smile, those intelligent eyes, you figured, oh God, he knows better than what he’s saying. He really actually is progressive.

Walter Kiriaki

He’s a beautiful man.

Paul Jay

Yeah. But if you read the speeches– like I did a story way back then, Was Reverend Wright Wrong? And I concluded Reverend Wright was right. In fact, the real substance of that Obama attack on Reverend Wright was Reverend Wright’s critique of Zionism. It wasn’t even really primarily about race, although it was. Obama was saying ridiculous things like there’s no systemic racism. But anyway, I had two hopes. Well, one hope for Obama. He’d be rational on Iran, and he was. The nuclear agreement with Iran was the one rational thing. And then two, he said something which I thought was great, although I don’t think he meant it, but I thought it was great. But it’s something other Democrats could say. In the last week of the election, McCain starts attacking him as a socialist, and he goes on and on. Obama is a socialist. Obama is a socialist. Obama finally answers him, and he says, “you know what? My Bible teaches me I am my brother’s keeper, so call me whatever you want.” It completely diffused it. So these goddamn Democrats today, they could just repeat what Obama said and diffuse it. But the problem is many of those corporate Democrats are as virulently anti-socialist and anti-communist because they work with Wall Street. But that’s what we should all be saying. Yeah, we are our brother’s keeper. So what?

Walter Kiriaki

I agree. Let’s give a chance for Ann and John. If you guys have a question for Paul before we lose him, by all means, go ahead.

Ann Li

No, I just want to thank Paul for his time. It really is important and also reminds us of how we need to get out there and get moving on some of these things.

Paul Jay

Thank you.

Jonathan Bick

Yeah, I would like to thank you as well and agree that we need to pressure our government through elections, through mass movements, through civil disobedience, direct action, and support for a labor movement, a democratically-controlled labor movement to pressure them, for example, to end this war in Ukraine as quickly as possible because this is not an existential issue for the United States and most of the West. We have to end it. There has to be a compromise. It’s got to be done. We need to move on to more important things like climate change and stopping a nuclear war.

Paul Jay

Maybe they’re connected. Maybe the way to get Russia to compromise is to get together with China and offer some plan to transition Russia off fossil fuel, make this a win-win thing. Offer no NATO for Ukraine.

Walter Kiriaki

Absolutely.

Paul Jay

Fuck this business of who looks strong and who looks weak. Let’s get to a solution.

Walter Kiriaki

I agree with that. I also wondered why Biden didn’t go more into it with Iran and getting the deal because that would have solved some of the problems.

Paul Jay

Yeah, because he’s just so worried about looking weak.

Walter Kiriaki

And Venezuela is fighting.

Paul Jay

The Saudi-Israeli lobby.

Walter Kiriaki

Well, I want to thank all of you. Paul, thank you so much. Your website is–

Paul Jay

theAnalysis.news.

Walter Kiriaki

Okay, and you’ll find that in the show notes. Ann Li, you have another column coming out tonight on the Daily Kos.

Ann Li

Yes, I do.

Walter Kiriaki

K-O-S. Professor John, and you can actually catch Ann and Professor John on David Feldman’s Office Hours. Go to his website and register. John teaches Star Trek.

Jonathan Bick

I do that as well.

Walter Kiriaki

You do, which is really neat.

Paul Jay

Thank you, everybody, for the invitation. I enjoy these conversations. Get me the video, and I’ll post it.

Walter Kiriaki

You got it, Paul. Thank you so much, my friend.

Jonathan Bick

Thanks.

Paul Jay

Bye, bye, everybody.

Walter Kiriaki

It is day 356 of the illegal Russian invasion into Ukraine. Now Americans are urged to leave Russia ASAP. Russian men are held up at the border of Russia. So it looks to be something going on there right now. Thank you very much, everybody, for listening and getting some questions in. I think the only crop we got coming into Eastern Ukraine now is dead soldiers with sunflowers in their pockets. That’s the new crop. So this has to come to an end. I think everybody today, even though they don’t agree on the method, do agree that this war should stop. I think that’s probably safe to say. Thanks very much. Take care.